See Rogan Drops Major Jan 6th Truth Bomb. (It’s Joe Rogan, so language alert.)
Why hasn’t Ray Epps been arrested?
This is the kind of story that makes people wonder if they’re being played.
I haven’t looked into this myself, except at a very superficial level.
As much as we like to decry conspiracy theories, there are often weird, unexplained, under-reported details about stories, and those become the gateway to believing in conspiracies.
There has been reporting on Ray Epps. It’s still not clear to me why he hasn’t been called to testify, or held, or whatever. He was clearly one of the agitators.
I’m not endorsing any view here, but some things seem beyond question.
- Some of the Jan. 6 protesters should be in jail.
- Law enforcement sometimes does tricky stuff, and there should be more accountability about that.
- Politicians will abuse their power and use events like this for partisan gain.
- People on the wings of the left and right will develop their own theories.
- The mainstream media will be mostly useless.
Still waiting for the Kraken to be released.
I wish there was more and better reporting on this other than the RWNJ press. Would certainly be interesting if Epps is an agent and also if he has been questioned or arrested by police if he isn’t.
I got an old friend that is absolutely QNuts about this stuff. Still saying it was Antifa… blah, blah, blah… Our media is too polarized to be trusted.
Right after she got arrested, Trump said publicly that he wished her well. One wonders what that was about.
“Our media is too polarized to be trusted.”
I agree. I’ve tried reading foreign news to get a different perspective. Not sure it helps.
Certainly it would be a grotesque non sequitur to conclude from the case of Ray Epps (whether real or fiction, I can’t say off hand), “The mainstream media will be mostly useless.”
That said, I think that a certain amount of healthy skepticism is always in order. But when the evidence is clearly presented, you would be foolish to ignore it. A case in point: The text messages that Fox commentators, such as Hannity and Ingraham, sent to Mark Meadows during the Capitol riot plainly show that they knew good and well that the rioters were doing Trump’s bidding. They tried to push another narrative afterwards about plants from Antifa as well as the “no big deal” narrative. When it came to light that they knew good and well that that this violent mob was both dangerous and working for Trump, they did their best to hide the truth.
Don’t let them em effers bee ess you!
One of the functions of Fox and these extreme rightwing media outlets is not so much to get you to accept their narrative, but to instill doubts in viewers about things for which there is plain evidence. Fill the public with doubt, and you can lure them into all kinds of bess ess where there is in fact strong evidence.
*”bee ess” instead of “bess ess”
QUOTE: I wish there was more and better reporting on this other than the RWNJ press. Would certainly be interesting if Epps is an agent and also if he has been questioned or arrested by police if he isn’t.
I had the same thought. It would be good to get to the bottom of this but the radical right press is so very biased that it’s hard to trust their narrative or present anything that doesn’t fit their narrative.
QUOTE: That said, I think that a certain amount of healthy skepticism is always in order. But when the evidence is clearly presented, you would be foolish to ignore it
Good point! Otherwise one stops thinking critically and becomes dependent upon others to draw conclusions for them…heard mentality. If one can clearly see a tree is bearing red apples and the media reports it is indeed red apples growing, there’s no need to ignore or deny it just because it comes from the media. Overall, it’s likely best to treat media reports like eating fish…eat the meat and toss the bones.
My conclusion that the mainstream media will be mostly useless is based on decades of experience, not simply Ray Epps.
Recent experience shows that it is sometimes useful. Not always of course. Fox and the far right, however, are doing all they can to throw out misinformation, disinformation, and irrelevant information in order to confuse the public.
What’s interesting is that January 6th has been thought to be “no big deal” by the radical right media…but they will likely fixate on this speculative element.
As well, according to some, there’s been a shift in the radical right from January 6 being “no big deal” to being a patriotic badge of honor. Also, some polls now indicate that a significant number believe that violence is appropriate to use against the government.
I hope we all believe violence is appropriate to use against the government at some point. I don’t think we’re nearly there, but unless you’re a pacifist, you have to believe there is some point at which violence becomes necessary.
Theoretically, yes. But it is not realistic to think in terms of extreme hypotheticals. The problem is that there are raging lunatics who are ready, willing, and able to engage it acts of extreme violence at the drop of the hat.
“Nearyl”? jfc, what about “remotely”? We’re not even remotely there.
Perhaps this is a regional difference, but where I come from “I don’t think we’re nearly there” and “I don’t think we’re remotely there” aren’t different.
For they are same as long as you stress “nearly.”
The point was the shift in the public’s attitude relative to violence against the government. Based on a current poll, the number that violence is appropriate is at a new low, 62%. In the 1990s, 90% believed it was never justified. With a number that high, they must have been a bunch of pacifists.
As well, I question how close we are to “there”. A recent poll found that 68% of respondents believed the events of Jan. 6 were a sign of increasing political violence, rather than an isolated incident. Sixty-six percent of respondents said they believe that U.S. democracy today is threatened, and 62% expect violence from the losing side in future presidential elections. Interestingly, in 2016, a former conservative congressmen tweeted…“If Trump loses, I’m grabbing my musket. You in?”. Given this, we might be closer to “there” than some think.
PS…others “signs” of the recent times: a plot to kidnap and kill the Michigan governor for implementing Covid health regulations, “armed” protestors threatening police and government officials because they disagreed with health regulations, death threats to several election officials for confirming a Democrat winner, death threats against Democrat congresswomen for advocating for their policy positions. There’s other recent examples but that gives some indication that we are moving towards “there”.
QUOTE: It’s still not clear to me why he hasn’t been called to testify, or held, or whatever.
Ray has now been called to testify and no evidence has been found to link him to the FBI or law enforcement.
https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/jan/18/how-new-jan-6-revelations-ray-epps-others-undercut/
The committee on Jan. 11 revealed that it had interviewed Ray Epps, an Arizona man accused by right-wing politicians and pundits of being an undercover law enforcement agent who set out to goad the pro-Trump rioters into violence. The committee said Epps confirmed he has no ties to the FBI or law enforcement.
Interestingly, the fact-checkers believe that Tucker Carlson’s statements on this subject are nothing more than conspiracy theory. Why am I not surprised? After all, this is what his lawyers and a judge said about his commentary:
Fox News’ Lawyers: The “‘general tenor’ of the show should then inform a viewer that [Carlson] is not ‘stating actual facts’ about the topics he discusses and is instead engaging in ‘exaggeration’ and ‘non-literal commentary.’ “
U.S. District Judge Mary Kay Vyskocil: “Fox persuasively argues, that given Mr. Carlson’s reputation, any reasonable viewer ‘arrive[s] with an appropriate amount of skepticism’ about the statement he makes. Whether the Court frames Mr. Carlson’s statements as ‘exaggeration,’ ‘non-literal commentary,’ or simply bloviating for his audience, the conclusion remains the same — the statements are not actionable.”
Ray Epps appears to be just one more red herring.
What I find disturbing about the “appropriate amount of skepticism” regarding Carlson’s commentary is that millions of viewers absorb his insanity without such skepticism. We cannot assume that rationality is the norm among FOX viewers and GOP members.
QUOTE: We cannot assume that rationality is the norm among FOX viewers and GOP members.
Point well taken. Also disturbing are people like this guy who are making money from influencing conservatives to believe the “big lie” .
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/01/19/sara-murray-teacher-election-conspiracy-dip-pkg-vpx.cnn
Yet, if what he says is true and the evidence is so compelling….why hasn’t he taken his “evidence” to a court of law (instead of the court of public opinion)?
I’m thinking the gateway drug starts way before then. Trump was a big fan of Alex Jones and promoted a bunch of Jones’ theories.
Jones was the guy,
1) 911 was an inside job
2) Sandy hook was a false flag
3) Hillary Clinton was a literal demon
4) They were molesting kids in the basement of a pizza shop in DC (that had no basement)
5) The election was stolen
Trump hitched his wagon to Jones to get Jones’ audience to vote for him. Rogan likes to traffic in some of these conspiracy theories as well. Tucker too. The gateway drug was a long time ago.
QUOTE:Some of the Jan. 6 protesters should be in jail.
Of the dozens of people who have been sentenced, fewer than half have received prison time.
QUOTE: Law enforcement sometimes does tricky stuff, and there should be more accountability about that.
It’s interesting that some think this about political shenanigans but have a hard time believing this about traffic stops and the like.
QUOTE: Politicians will abuse their power and use events like this for partisan gain.
True. It didn’t take long for the likes of Kevin McCarthy, Lindsey Graham, Matt Gaetz, Jim Jordan, Marjorie Taylor Green, et. al. to use the events of the day for partisan purposes…mostly to obfuscate and point the finger elsewhere. According to some, the fault lies with the Democrats and Antifa.
QUOTE: People on the wings of the left and right will develop their own theories.
By the subject of this very thread we know this is a fact! As well, the failure of criminal charges for sedition to materialize very quickly after January 6 became a key talking point for some. They insisted it couldn’t have been an insurrection because nobody had been charged with sedition.
QUOTE: The mainstream media will be mostly useless.
Actually, I’ve found some media outlets to be quite helpful in “showing” what actually happened on January 6 and reporting on progress since the riot.
This is as good a place as any….
This is creepy AF, Jon Voigt
Creepy yes….surprising no! This is just the stuff we see. Can you image what’s said and done that’s not in the media? What’s amazing is they can clearly see the flaws of their opponent but some of those very flaws are glaring within Trump but somehow they become virtues.
Albeit the interviewer was too leading, it’s still fascinating (sad and scary too) hearing the perspectives of one who thought he was a “patriot” participating in the Jan. 6 Capitol riot and Stop the Steal rallies. It illustrates the impact of group think and conspiracies run amok.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/09/politics/stop-the-steal-cult-january-6/index.html
One possible reason so many people are drawn into these crazy systems is that they’re not being challenged in other ways.
Young men need a sense of purpose and adventure. Who’s supplying that?
Video games. Cults (religious or political). The military.
You know who isn’t? The church.
I’ve been told that jihad has a dual meaning: one being violent, and the other being and internal struggle — fighting against your own sins, etc. I don’t know if that’s true, or if that’s just an attempt to make Islam sound more peaceful, but it’s a very important concept.
Men need a conflict, and society needs a way to satisfy that need during times of peace and war. Men need to be challenged. “Come to mass and sing bunny rabbit songs” is not doing it.
It’s more than come to mass and sing bunny rabbit songs.
IDK how it is in RC churches, but in many evangelical churches it’s come to service and sing “I want to French kiss you Jesus” songs. What hetero man wants to sing that?