If this is true, it’s really bad.
Trump plans to outshine Biden on Inauguration Day with opposing rally: report
I probably have more sympathy than many of you with the “Democrats cheated” story line. My reasons. (1) People cheat, and they cheat even more when they believe they can get away with it. (2) Democrats disproportionately embrace an “ends justify the means” attitude. (3) The surge in mail-in voting made the possibility of widespread cheating more tempting, and more probable. (4) Many of the places where cheating is alleged are not known as beacons of fairness and good government, to put it mildly.
However …. Nothing substantial is sticking. IOW, while it’s a dead certainty there was cheating, it’s also fairly certain it wasn’t enough to change the results. At least from what we’ve seen so far.
Accusation after accusation has been shot down, and not only by Obama appointees. Even the suitcase thing, which seemed so damaging at first, might be no big deal. (Although Mollie Hemingway says it has not been debunked.)
I suppose it’s possible there’s this great, underground, fabulously successful conspiracy out there that stole the election. After all, the Russia thing almost worked. But so far, we haven’t been given convincing evidence.
This leaves two plausible explanations for Trump’s strategy.
- He truly believes the election was stolen, and he feels it’s his duty to expose it.
- He’s cynically using the issue for future political advantage.
Even if he believes #1, it doesn’t excuse skipping Biden’s inauguration. That’s petty and unbefitting a man, let alone a president.
Here’s what’s really bizarre to me…generally the same people that believe the 2020 election was stolen don’t believe that the 2016 could have been rigged…despite evidence from multiple government investigations that there were foreign bad actors. Even Trump said it was rigged…multiple times (until he won). Yet, to date, no “credible evidence” indicates malfeasance during in the 2020 election. The stories seem to get more desperate and farcical as time elapses. In fact, there is strong reason to believe the 2020 election outcomes are reliable given …
*The former Director of CISA (a life long Republican) has gone on record declaring there is no widespread fraud. He and his team indicated this is the “safest election in US history”.
*The US Attorney General has gone on record indicating he’s not seen any fraud that would change the results of the election, to date.
*16 DOJ prosecutors have gone on record indicating they have not seen any widespread voter fraud.
*State election officials have unanimous denied any widespread fraud.
*Despite being loyal Trump supporters, the Georgia Secretary of State and Lt. Governor and other local officials have REPEATEDLY indicated they have not seen any widespread voter fraud. After completing two recounts the election outcomes have remained the same.
*Despite enduring death threats for contradicting Trump, state election officials still maintain they haven’t witnessed widespread fraud. It would be so much easier for them to go along with the Trump delusion (especially Republican) but they continually put themselves in harm’s way to endorse the current election outcomes.
*When so-called “evidence” has been presented in court, it has been dismissed…even by Republican appointed judges.
* In a number of “court of law” cases, the Trump campaign haven’t even alleged fraud…which is very different than their allegations in the “court of public opinion”.
As well, if the 2020 election is rigged, why are Republicans willing to accept down ballot Republican wins. They did better than anticipated. If there was cheating, why weren’t the results skewed toward Democrats? That said, until there is credible evidence of widespread fraud, I’ll ignore the misguided allegations and chalk them up to wishful thinking and sour grapes.
Additionally, it seems odd that people believe Democrats are more prone to cheat when we have documented evidence of actual voter fraud by Republicans in the past two national elections. In fact, if reports are to be believed, it seems Trump et. al. are attempting to overturn a legitimate election by strong-arming state legislators. I could only image the reaction if there was a hint of Democrats pressuring state legislators and the Georgia Governor to assign electors to vote for them (in opposition of the apparent election results in favor of Republicans).
Lastly, nothing surprises me with Trump. I suspect he will not attend Biden’s inauguration and do some type of counter programming. If so, it would be consistent with much of his behavior during his presidency. Biden is right, it would be best for the country if Trump would participate (without causing a ruckus). Yet, if he can’t behave then it’s probably best he not attend and let the country move on…without him. BYE!
There was a time when I thought Democrats and Republicans are pretty much equal in embracing evil, but in the Trump era (especially in its final phase) I have no doubt that Republicans disproportionately embrace an “ends justify the means” attitude. They know that he has no interest in the American people and yet continue to support him. If there is any voting fraud – and yes, there will be some here and there – it most likely comes from that side.
I doubt if Trump has hit an all-time low. He will most likely stage a counter-event during the inauguration of Biden and Harris, and I think that he will get a pretty big crowd consisting of QUanon members, Proud Boys, and other White Supremacists. This is the future of America: a substantial and extremely vile minority of shrill individuals taunting – possibly even terrorizing – the rest of the people, especially the most vulnerable.
It is a pity that the GOP is disintegrating. I would like to see it rather move more towards its classic position. We need at least two strong mainstream parties which will allow for fruitful exchange and compromise, but Trump will continue trolling the GOP and thereby creating the impression that the Democrats are the only adults in the room.
It’s funny that’s your reaction, because mine is almost the opposite.
People are getting their information from sources that are so unreliable, and so far out of touch with one another, that it’s like we’re all in different worlds.
For example, that you could say something like this — “They know that he has no interest in the American people and yet continue to support him.” — shows you are in another reality.
It’s similar to a modern-day fairy story, in the sense Tolkien meant by fairy story.
Even John Bolton, conservative on steroids, who observed Trump at close range testifies that Trump is only interested in himself, not in the welfare of the country. Many other sources corroborate this view. You may dismiss someone like Bob Woodward as a liberal, but his taped conversations between him and Trump speak for themselves. I base my view on rock-solid testimonies and well documented facts (e.g. public outbursts in great abundance). To deny them and their clear-cut implications is indeed to live in a fairy story, fit only for the likes of QAnon.
Although not a one-to-one correlation, this exchange so reminds me of this… https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+4%3A3-4&version=ESV
QUOTE: For example, that you could say something like this — “They know that he has no interest in the American people and yet continue to support him.” — shows you are in another reality.
How do you validate your statement? What sources of information do you base your view upon and how do you validate they are accurate and based in reality?
Robin makes a good point that there have been numerous officials (many of them conservatives) that have given unanimous testimony relative to Trump’s character and interest in the American people (or lack thereof). As well, Trump’s public statements and tweets speak for themselves. Direct statements and first-hand testimonies tend to be considered quite reliable in the court of law. Given that, it seems reasonable for him and others to hold such a viewpoint.
That said, it appears some are indeed drinking the proverbial political “Kool-aid”…
https://twitter.com/NewDay/status/1336304501339418631?s=20
Look at the quote in context. “… I have no doubt that Republicans disproportionately embrace an “ends justify the means” attitude. They know that he has no interest in the American people and yet continue to support him.”
“They” in the language above refers to “Republicans,” or perhaps to the (alleged) disproportionate number of Republicans who embrace ends justify the means attitudes. It certainly does not refer to cherry-picked examples like John Bolton, and to pretend that these cherry-picked examples address the situation is quite inaccurate.
As to Trump’s statements speaking for themselves, I’ve had four years of experience with this now, and I know as certainly as I know the sun is shining that there what many people regard as the plain meaning of Trump’s words I find preposterous. The “there were good people on both sides” episode is perhaps the most obvious and suggestive.
So all my experience — interacting on this board, talking to people, reading comments, listening to this and that — has shown me that we are living in different realities. Simple facts (e.g., that the cages were built during the Obama administration) are believed or ignored depending on which reality you live in.
And it’s not just Trump. “Hands up, don’t shoot,” and so many other things are simply tales from faerie.
By “they” I did in fact mean Republicans in general, but especially the ones in positions of power, simply because the facts at hand are right in front of their faces. It is moreover total BS and utter nonsense to dismiss star witnesses such John Bolton and a host of others as “cherry-picked.” When witnesses are called to the stand, they are indeed picked because they are simply in a position to provide evidence. In this case so much evidence can be brought forth it could make your head swim. It has nothing to do with some sort of untoward selecting (so-called “cherry-picking”).
A man who is dismissed from his duties is likely to highlight the negative, especially when there is a market for that kind of report. Aside from that, you can’t assume that Bolton — who has been an outlier in Republican circles long before Trump came along — is now somehow a representative of Republicans.
There are other “official” Republicans who say similar things about Trump. Okay. And there are “official” Republicans who dispute those things. And there are millions of unofficial Republicans who go to Trump rallies and sing his praises.
The man is unquestionably a source of offense and division.
Seems you’re relying upon your opinion and experiences. That’s fine but the question becomes how do you validate them. I can’t speak for Robin but it seems he too is expressing an opinion but uses references to validate his view…at least stuff that might be credible in a court of law.
The interesting thing about opinions and experiences is that they don’t always accurately reflect “reality”. For instance, some patients in ICU are dying of Covid-19 but refuse to believe it’s anything but a hoax. Yet, the “reality” is, it’s a genuine virus that will likely kill them (despite their sincerely held belief and experiences with other viruses).
So, given this occasional gap between opinions and reality…is there something that informs your expressed view and confirms it is indeed “reality”? What validates your view as “reality” and Robin’s as a false or “alternate” reality?
I never said which was true and which was false.
As I see it, we’ve all gone down something like a hermeneutical spiral. We’ve all built jenga towers of assumptions, and we’re not even aware of all the blocks — or even that there are blocks.
Some people are absolutely convinced that cops are racists and are almost hunting black men. They’ve heard so many stories from that point of view that to question it would seem ridiculous.
Others are sure the deep state is conspiring against Trump. Again, they’ve heard so many confirming stories, they can’t even begin to say why they believe it. It’s a complicated neural net in their heads.
This is not a sudden thing. Many years ago we gave up on a common language, a common set of facts, a common set of standards by which to evaluate facts, and anything like a common source of truth. Now we’re living in completely different worlds.
For the record, I didn’t say that Bolton represents Republicans. If only he did! What I said was that he is a conservative on steroids. He is old school. A lot of the old-school (or classic) conservatives have profound misgivings about Trump, and as far as I can tell these misgivings are based on fact – in Bolton’s case very up-close. And by the way, he maintains that he was not dismissed, but resigned on his own accord because it was simply impossible to work with Trump.
If, however, you absolutely insist that neither side in the Trump War is relying on facts and we are all merely spinning out hypotheses from our imagination, one might consider the issue with respect to their complexity. It is a lot simpler to view Trump as an unrestrained narcissist than it is to posit elaborate machinations of a deep state. By the principle of Occam’s Razor it is much more parsimonious to be inclined towards accepting the former hypothesis.
I’d agree people have widely divergent views on key social and political issues. At times, it feels as if we’re living in the Divided States of America. Yet, that still doesn’t diminish objective facts and truth. People can believe whatever they want but that doesn’t negate certain realities. As I said previously, despite some choosing to be influenced by rhetoric that Covid is a hoax (while on life support in an ICU), the reality is they may die from it.
So, there indeed may wide variance on key social/political issues. But, there’s only one “true” reality. Given that, when facts are available that would be deemed credible in a court of law, I’d suggest that’s closer to “true” reality than mere personal preferences or propaganda. For instance, the US Supreme Court just rejected a lawsuit to overturn the PA presidential election results. Some may choose to believe the heavily conservative court is now in allegiance with the “deep state” or they can look at the pattern of established facts and realize there was no justifiable legal basis for over turning the PA election results. I’d suggest the later is “true” reality.
Relative to Robin’s comments, it seems he’s introduced references that could stand up to court-like scrutiny. As I said previously, direct statements and credible first-hand testimony can be quite compelling…especially when they are aligned with clearly observed behavior over a significant period of time. Like it or not, relative to Trump, all those factors seem to point to a consistent reality.
QUOTE: I probably have more sympathy than many of you with the “Democrats cheated” story line. My reasons. (1) People cheat, and they cheat even more when they believe they can get away with it.
Indeed, someone actually tried but seems they may not get away with it. Could this a “Kraken” culprit ?
https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/florida-lawyer-under-felony-investigation-for-telling-fellow-republicans-to-commit-voter-fraud-in-georgia-senate-runoffs/