Dave Rubin, Sidney Powell and the Lord, Liar, Lunatic argument

You’ve probably heard that Sidney Powell is making some very serious accusations about voter fraud. So far she hasn’t presented much evidence, but that’s apparently the way lawyers play it. They save the evidence for the court room. So at this point all we have to go on is that a high-powered and well-respected attorney is making this case. What can we learn just from that?

Dave Rubin made an argument on his show yesterday about Powell’s statement, and Rubin’s position echoes the “Lord, Liar, Lunatic” argument about Jesus. That argument (I’m sure you know) claims that someone who makes the outrageous claim of being God can be wrong for one of two reasons: he can be a wicked liar or he can be a complete lunatic. On the other hand, he can be right. There are, of course, lots of ways to criticize that argument (e.g., are there really only three possibilities?), but that’s not the point here. I simply found the parallel interesting and worth mentioning.

Rubin makes a similar claim about Powell in this respect. She has a whole lot to lose by making outrageous accusations that turn out to be false, and you can frame the argument along similar lines. Following the LLL structure, consider the possibilities.

1. She’s wrong and she knows she’s wrong. She’s making emotional, heart-felt, wrap-me-in-the-flag appeals to virtue and patriotic duty when she knows she’s got nothing.

I agree with Rubin: that does not seem likely. She has a whole lot to lose from taking that sort of position. It would compromise her ability to get big cases in the future, because people would just say, “Sure, and you’re the one who gave us that teary-eyed pile of nonsense about voter fraud.”

2. She’s wrong and she’s deceived. Someone has been feeding her false information, and she’s been duped.

That doesn’t seem likely either. A competent, experienced lawyer like Powell has been around the block a time or two, and she should know better than to fall for crazy theories and bad evidence. You don’t get to be someone like Sidney Powell by falling for stupid, unsupported claims.

3. She’s right. There really was widespread corruption.

This seems unlikely, but for a very different reason. Conspiracies of this level require a level of coordination and excellence in execution that few people can pull off. At least it seems that way to me. And the penalties for being caught pulling off such a crime are pretty severe.

Of course people do stupid things that put themselves in jeopardy every day, and the alleged players in this case may have acted on the reasonable expectation that the media and their political friends would cover for them. So this one can cut both ways.

Overall, I’m not nearly ready to say that I believe Powell. I’m content to wait and see. But Rubin is right to point out that there is an argument to be made in her favor simply on the basis of this sort of analysis. She would be very stupid to be making these claims if she couldn’t prove them. And she’s not stupid.

At the very least we should admit that there might be something here, and that it should be investigated. And if Powell has led the country on a snipe hunt, it should end her career.

50 thoughts on “Dave Rubin, Sidney Powell and the Lord, Liar, Lunatic argument”

  1. The remedy is very simple…show the evidence in court. To date, the Trump campaign has brought nearly 30 cases to court and only won one…that one didn’t have anything to do with fraud. In fact, in some cases, judges asked specifically if they were alleging fraud and Trump’s lawyers had to confess they were not.

    As well, just because Powell is an experienced lawyer doesn’t mean that she’s above being wrong. She may have even convinced herself she’s correct. Expertise isn’t always aligned with credibility. For instance, Steve Ballmer, former Microsoft CEO, indicated the iPhone wouldn’t appeal to consumers and ultimately be a failure. Ken Olson, co-founder of Digital Equipment Corp. indicated there wouldn’t be a reason anyone to want a computer in their home. Goodness knows we currently have good people dying of Covid in ICU units who passionately believe it is a hoax, despite a confirmed medical diagnosis. So, experience, capable people, despite their knowledge and passion, are sometimes flat-out wrong or self-deceived.

    The only thing that will validate Powell’s claims is if she presents her evidence and it’s deemed credible by those in rightful authority . Even Jesus provided evidence of his claims. Relative to Powell…to quote our buddy Tucker Carlson…”time for Sidney Powell to show us her evidence. We asked the Trump campaign attorney for proof of her bombshell claims. She gave us nothing.

    1. Yes, of course she has to present her argument in court, and of course she’s not above being wrong, although the examples you cite are not really apt. They have more to do with people not being good at predicting the future very well, where Powell is presumably dealing with evidence she has examined.

      1. They are apt examples because some give credibility to Powell’s assertions (without seeing evidence) because of her alleged legal expertise. Like her, the cited individuals were given credibility when making assertions within their areas of expertise. As well, professionals at their level don’t tend to “wing-it” when making assertions within their areas of expertise…they use the evidence of their trade.

        That said, given the courts have been readily accessible for election cases and deciding them rather quickly, you’d think an experienced lawyer with strong evidence would have put forth her case by now…especially since she feels her evidence has the potential to invalidate the election. Yet, to date, she’s spent more time trying her case in the court of public opinion than in a court of law.

  2. In yesterday’s press conference (if you can call it that), Powell indicted crucial “evidence” was included in a law suit filed in Georgia by attorney Lin Wood. It appears attorney Wood’s law suit was dismissed…by a Trump appointed judge.

    https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/trump-appointed-judge-rejects-lin-woods-creative-election-lawsuit-in-georgia/

    Also, Powell stated yesterday that “Trump won by a landslide and we’re going to prove it”. Looking forward to seeing that proof.

  4. Well, Powell is a long, long time QAnon supporter. Honestly, I expect her to produce proof at the same time 1) we see proof that Obama was born in Kenya, 2) Trump releases his taxes, 3) Trump releases his health care plan that he’s been holding on for 4 years.

    I’d ask you to consider that maybe she is a part of the coup.
    Where is the Avignon White House going to be setup? Mar-a-lago?

    I haven’t been worrying too much about the election. Let them provide their evidence if they have any. So far most of the “evidence” has been laughable. I will say I have more respect for Chavez. 7 years after his death he’s been able to overturn a US election. What foresight and planning. Wow.

        1. Okay, that puts everything in a new light. Thanks for that. I had heard enough comments to the effect that she was a serious, straight-shooting, highly respected lawyer that I took that as a given. Looks like I shouldn’t have.

            2. Isn’t it “interesting” that Trump’s legal team is distancing itself from Powell, just as the golden goose is about lay her epic evidence egg? Oops, I’m sorry, her words were…“release the kraken”.

              Seems some conservatives didn’t take kindly to her recent claims. National Review stated…“It’s good that Powell’s cashiering will presumably take some wind out of her sails, but it’s a disgrace that she ever got within a hundred miles of a president’s legal team, let alone that she was given such a platform to spout her disgraceful nonsense.

              In response to Giuliani’s announcement Powell said, “I understand today’s press release. I will continue to represent #WeThePeople who had their votes for Trump and other Republicans through Dominion and Smartmatic, and we will be filing suit soon. The chips will fall where they may, and we will defend the foundations of this great Republic. #KrakenOnSteroids.” She may be gone from Trump’s team, but not forgotten!

              I better get out the popcorn, this week promises to be thrilling! Haven’t seen a good kraken contest in ages!

        2. Is there actual evidence Powell is a Qanon supporter, or is this a typical media lie / smear campaign?

          1. Does it matter? I’m not sure she’s even his lawyer according to a press release from Trump’s campaign.

            But as I wrote, I found the article on Vice and most other articles sourced that one. Have I verified the contents of the Vice article? No. But I did hear today Powell say that it was a conspiracy involving “thousands” of people to falsify the election. Honestly, sounds like something only a conspiracy but could believe. Do I think a handful of hackers could do something? Sure. It’s possible probably. But I don’t think thousands could pull it off.

      3. Also, with Covid spiking like crazy, isn’t Trump a Judas by not allowing Biden in on the Covid briefings and data? If Trump prevails, then Biden and his team are more informed about Covid. If Trump fails, as he probably will, then it is wasted weeks where the Biden team could have come up to speed on the totality of the situation.

        Trump really does not give one shit about anything or anyone other than himself.

        Is there a more flawed person to ever hold the office?

      4. Looks like Powell might be riding the Qanon express. https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-election-lawyer-sidney-powell-is-longtime-qanon-supporter-2020-11

        This reminds me of another “professional” that made “interesting claims that Trump touted. Her claims still remain unverified.
        https://www.menshealth.com/health/a33450073/who-is-dr-stella-immanuel-covid-trump/

        Still, if Powell has credible “evidence”…it’s time to put up or shut up. The longer this goes on it feels like one of Trump’s cliff-hanger statements for the purpose of creating a distraction.

  5. Looks like Powell might be riding the Qanon express.

    This reminds me of another “professional” that made “interesting claims that Trump touted. Her claims still remain unverified.
    https://www.menshealth.com/health/a33450073/who-is-dr-stella-immanuel-covid-trump/

    Still, if Powell has credible “evidence”…it’s time to put up or shut up. The longer this goes on it feels like one of Trump’s cliff-hanger statements for the purpose of creating a distraction.

  6. Well, what do you know…another one bites the dust! Seems a Federal judge (who has been member of the Federalist Society) has dismissed another Trump legal case in Pennsylvania. Wait! I thought we’d surely see some of Powell’s stunning evidence, given PA is scheduled to certify its election results on Monday. Yet, this is what the judge noted…

    “One might expect that when seeking such a startling outcome, a plaintiff would come formidably armed with compelling legal arguments and factual proof of rampant corruption, such that this Court would have no option but to regrettably grant the proposed injunctive relief despite the impact it would have on such a large group of citizens. That has not happened. Instead, this Court has been presented with strained legal arguments without merit and speculative accusations, unpled in the operative complaint and unsupported by evidence.”

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pennsylvania-judge-throws-out-trump-lawsuit-biden-win

    Powell et. al. better start getting that evidence in the court soon. Otherwise, some will start to suspect her claims were propaganda and she’s the cracked-pot some speculated her to be after last week’s “interesting” press conference. We wouldn’t want such an outcome for an experienced lawyer who proclaims she’s a great patriot and has the goods to save our democracy.

    1. The damned Dems have hidden those machines they got from Chavez. You know, the ones that only worked for presidential votes. Once Powell finds them, she is gonna bring forth the Great Awakening quite definitively. I tell ya, the GOP and QAnon are becoming one single entity and the Dems are shaking in their boots.

      1. Au contraire, Robin…they won’t be hidden much longer. Powell would be very stupid to be making these claims if she couldn’t prove them. She’s a smart, competent, highly experienced lawyer. Therefore, we should expect she’ll soon take a legendary midnight ride, like Paul Revere, exclaiming….”the evidence is coming, the evidence is coming!!!” Then, she will make the long-awaited grand reveal, release the kraken and all will finally see.

    2. If she is (as seems to be) a Qanon supporter, that casts this all in a very different light. Her “evidence” is only to convince a certain group.

      1. Yeah. Lawyer is one word. Operative is another word. I think it’s mostly to foment a revolution. An interview I heard this morning spoke of a conspiracy of thousands—yes, she said thousands. How do you keep a lid on that and maintain secrecy ? …you know, especially with morally depraved Demoncrats? You’d think they’d be spilling the beans to their lovers, friends, and families…

      2. Powell is now claiming that Republican Georgia Governor Brian Kemp and Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger were being paid to be part of a conspiracy with Dominion Voting Systems. She recently stated…“And Mr. Kemp and the secretary of state need to go with it because they’re in on the Dominion scam with their last-minute purchase or reward of a contract to Dominion of $100 million. We’ve got tons of evidence. It’s so much, it’s hard to pull it all together,” Powell continued. “Hopefully, this week we will get it ready to file, and it will be biblical.”

        Even Trump attorney Jay Skeulow is on board. He recently stated…“I can’t tell you right now what is coming in Georgia, but what is coming in Georgia will be shocking!”

        So, I guess we better buckle up boys…it’s likely to be a bumpy ride this week. Still, it seems rather interesting that with such a volume of damning evidence that they’ve waited till after Georgia certified their election to bring it forth. Hmm.

      3. From all the information that I can gather about her (at least in connection with Trump), she belongs somewhere on the liar/lunatic spectrum. People like that can have great success in financial gain and power, as Trump himself vividly illustrates.

        1. @Robin, indeed is increasingly looking like she may be in the liar/lunatic spectrum, despite being an alleged competent, experienced lawyer. When Trump’s legal team distances itself from someone who claims to have evidence that could overturn the current election results, that speaks volumes (especially given Trump recently touted her legal support). As well, even conservative pundits/media are questioning the veracity of claims.

          Last year Powell appeared on a QAnon YouTube show. As well, has retweeted rhetoric that is akin to things she’s currently spewing relative to the 2020 election.

          Powell retweet: “General Flynn is going to expose the entire DS (deep state) Mueller hoax. You attack you fear the most. Nothing can stop what is coming. Nothing.” @POTUS #QAnon #FridayMotivation

          Powell retweet: “You can choose to report honestly on what is about to be disclosed or you can choose to ignore it. Make no mistake, it will all be made public. And the public will remember who told them the truth. Your move. Choose wisely.” #Dreams

          https://twitter.com/AlKapDC/status/1138907835415367682/photo/1

          1. What is “the Mueller Hoax”? AFAIK, Mueller was a former FBI chief, Republican in his private life, appointed by a Republican DOJ to investigate alleged improprieties by the Trump campaign. No one contests the results of the investigation …maybe only the interpretation of the report. Several members of team Trump were indicted and pleaded out including Flynn, Papdopoulos, etc.

  8. So now that she’s getting sued by Dominion, she’s saying that no reasonable person would assume she was doing anything other than making it up.

    Maybe if all you did was go on Fox News and say that. But, if you went to court and made filings… well, if you knowingly made false filings to the court…I’d say that’s grounds for disbarment.

    1. I saw that and tried very hard to comprehend what is going on there. I suppose that the argument of the defense is that the apparent unreasonabless of her allegation could have done no harm to Dominion. Perhaps they will argue in addition that the filings did indeed have merit, but not the sort of merit the general public can understand. It sounds like very dubious line of argument, probably the only option for such a liar/lunatic though.

      1. Seems they are following the Tucker Carlson playbook. https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/917747123/you-literally-cant-believe-the-facts-tucker-carlson-tells-you-so-say-fox-s-lawye

        In the court of law they want to appear as if their claims weren’t meant to be taken seriously. Yet, in the court of public opinion they want to appear highly credible. The interesting thing, it worked for Carlson. It may work for Powell too.

        Maybe Powell’s latest revelation is the “Kraken” we’ve all been waiting for?

        1. Tucker Carlson has found that sweet spot where he can spread fake news to his heart’s content and enjoy immunity to all legal challenges. Some think that this venomous scoundrel can replace Trump. I don’t know if he can go that far, but he is certainly a shining example for other social and political vipers.

  9. Sheeee’s back. She recently made a public statement that Trump could be reinstated and a new inauguration date set. This, after her lawyer said in a court filing…“No reasonable person would conclude that the statements were truly statements of fact”… concerning her claims about the 2020 election.

    One thing is clear…this woman is brilliant and knows a lot more than the deep state will allow the general public to know. Or, she’s one of the biggest cracked pots in today’s conservative circles.

    https://www.newsweek.com/sidney-powell-claims-trump-can-simply-reinstated-biden-told-leave-white-house-1596207

    1. I seriously think that her mental health is questionable, just as it is with her friend Micheal Flynn, who recently spoke in favor of a violent overthrow of the US.

    2. I wonder how much she gets paid for speaking at an engagement like that? Do they pay expenses and a small stipend, or something more substantial in the $10s of thousands?

      I’m sure saying stuff like this also drives her branding and traffic to whatever websites that she can monetize. The more controversial, the more hits and the more $$$.

      As for Flynn, I heard Vindman say that Flynn could be prosecuted under the UCMJ because as a retired General, he is still subject to it. IDK if I believe that. I’d want to hear someone more impartial say it. But, these people seem to be absolutely bonkers. These are the types of people orange bozo surrounds himself with.

  10. BTW, has anyone seen Powell’s alleged Kraken? Could it be she’s actually led the country on a snipe hunt? If so, is it now time to end her career?

    1. No Kraken in sight. But Tucker Carlson keeps making faces which is equally frightful.

  11. Maybe not so crazy.

    Read that her legal fines for all her bullsh*t filings on behalf of Trump is somewhere around between $200k and $300k. And, also read that her legal defense fun raised around $14 million .

    Let’s see $14million minus $300k…is quite a bit of profit.

    The Trump administration…where the grift never ends.

    Also, saw where Jenna Ellis was whining because someone published her “client attorney privileged” working papers for Trump and the coup they wanted to perform in January using Pence. ummm… two things…

    1) When you engage in an illegal conspiracy with your client to commit a crime, there is no client attorney privilege
    2) Doesn’t stop anyone from publishing them anyways. Only prevents the state from using it against your client if like a normal attorney you were representing him and not plotting a coup.

    1. So, not at a crazy person and not just any old liar, but a greedy liar. The element of greed is a crucial factor in the whole Trumpist operation.

    2. One of the more fascinating dynamics in this story is that supporters continually give donations despite Powell’s legal defense stating months ago…“No reasonable person would conclude that the statements were truly statements of fact”. I suppose the chorus of this song is their donation theme…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPLiznWRZXs

  12. Could be the final nail in the Kraken coffin?

    Former U.S. Attorney General William Barr said then-President Donald Trump became furious after Barr told him there was no evidence that the 2020 election was fraudulent. “I told him that all this stuff was bulls—… about election fraud. And, you know, it was wrong to be shoveling it out the way his team was.”

    1. Is he hawking a book? All these people only speaking up when they’re trying to make a buck. When it’s something for the good of the country, all I hear is crickets

      1. Agreed! Yeah, the timing is rather suspicious given much of the time he was AG you mainly heard a sucking sound when it came to his discussion about Trump. Yet, to his credit, during 2020, he said that the U.S. Justice Department hadn’t uncovered any evidence of widespread voter fraud that could change the outcome of the 2020 election.

        I suspect some are getting squeamish about what the 1/6 committee might expose relative to a recent “criminal conspiracy” court filing. If what’s being alleged turns out to be accurate, they don’t want to be any where near Trump when that crap hits the fan.

        https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/596657-jan-6-panel-claims-trump-engaged-in-corrupt-scheme-on-2020-election

        1. Bolton says Trump wanted to pull out of NATO during his second term. Maybe Putin got tired of waiting after he spent all that time on Trump? In Nov 2020 we pulled unilaterally over the Open Skies treaty. Arguably, that could be helping Ukraine now by providing them with intelligence. Hard to believe corporal Bone Spurs would’ve tougher on Russia than Biden. Seems he did everything in his power to weaken Europe

          1. Yeah, it’s interesting that during Trump’s campaign and presidency there were threats of him pulling out of NATO. Putin would have been pleased. Not surprising the move to pull out of Open Skies treaty…made things easier for Putin. When you think about it, aside a few sanctions, Trump was pretty light on Putin. Even to the point of having private meetings alone…no translator. Hmm…ever wonder what they discussed? Nevertheless, if Putin wanted to weaken NATO, via Trump’s assistance, seems his latest Ukraine attack had the opposite effect.

        2. This pertains to what I recently said about people who are willing to look past his severely alarming flaws and actually identify something within him that they deem as “good.” Such a feat is beyond all possible rational and moral comprehension, it seems to me.

          1. I suppose these people are whatever the opposite of being “woke”is …likely “comatose”…given their allegiance.

  13. QUOTE: 1. She’s wrong and she knows she’s wrong. She’s making emotional, heart-felt, wrap-me-in-the-flag appeals to virtue and patriotic duty when she knows she’s got nothing. I agree with Rubin: that does not seem likely…she would be very stupid to be making these claims if she couldn’t prove them. And she’s not stupid..

    This week’s testimonies have again reinforced just how much of liar, lunatic and whack-job Sidney Powell is. Just to think, she was considered as a potential US Special Counsel by our former President…with no evidence of her claims that could withstand scrutiny in a court of law.

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