Greg Krehbiel
Don’t let your wife go to “spiritual direction” with a man — even if he is a priest
by Greg Krehbiel on 16 October 2009
Okay, this is one of those posts where the Catholics are going to come out of the woodwork and give me H, but this is something I’ve felt for a very long time, and two things set me off about it this morning.
First, Pigweed and I were discussing this very issue last night, and second, Gordon just sent me a link to a story that highlights the problem.
A Mother, a Sick Son and His Father, the Priest
The basic story goes like this. A woman goes to a “spiritual” retreat where she meets a dynamic priest. The woman goes to this priest for “spiritual direction.” The woman has the priest’s baby.
Of course there’s always more to the story, and you can’t let one example set a policy. (As they say, “hard cases make bad law.”)
And, of course, an otherwise strong marriage wouldn’t have had these problems. Etc. etc. etc. You can make excuses all day long. But the problem remains.
I have always felt that “spiritual direction” is an inherently intimate thing. (Emotionally, that is.) It has to be if it’s going to be any good. It has to deal with emotions and desires and hopes and all sorts of stuff that are … well, intimate.
The idea that a woman can go to a man for spiritual direction with no risk of “starting something” is absolutely crazy. (It is, of course, equally crazy to believe that a man should go to a woman for spiritual direction.)
The fact that the Catholic Church permits (and even encourages) this sort of thing is one of those little niggling details that caused me to lose respect for the Catholic Church. It’s simply insane, and the fact that they don’t see that shows a serious lack of good judgement.
I don’t care how well priests are trained. I don’t care what vows they’ve taken. If they meet privately with a woman to discuss her innermost fears and wants and desires and so on, it’s going to be a “near occasion of sin.”
If women want “spiritual direction” they should go to their husbands, or if he’s behind the curve (which is quite likely), to some mature woman.
Oh — and by the way — this isn’t unique to Catholicism. Going to the pastor for counseling is no different. (Isn’t there a country song about the pastor running off with the singer’s wife?)
2009-10-16 » Greg Krehbiel
16 October 2009 @ 12:50 pm
Very sad story.
I am grateful that our church has tough stances on this issue – no pastor alone with any woman except his wife and kids at any time.
It may seem unnecessary to some, but we want to avoid even the appearance of evil.
16 October 2009 @ 12:53 pm
But of course priests don’t have sex, that is why they are so keenly suited for intimate encounters with troubled women.
16 October 2009 @ 3:24 pm
There is far far more carnal relations going on between priests and their parishoner’s wives than between priests and their parishoner’s children..
I think it was Fr Doyle who put the figure at something like *45% of priests had slept around with adult females who sorta consented
*which probably comes out to 80% of the heterosexual priests
16 October 2009 @ 5:32 pm
All of which underscores why I am skeptical of the suitability of anyone but myself to give me “spiritual” advice. I don’t see too many people doing much better than I am anyway.
16 October 2009 @ 8:05 pm
Someone else might be able to counsel you on pride, but you probably wouldn’t take advice anyway. You’re sufficient in an unto yourself.
16 October 2009 @ 8:13 pm
I don’t know that the Church actively encourages Spiritual Direction from opposite sex directors. It’s probably allowed, because there’s no rule _against_ it, but I don’t think it’s encouraged. The parishes that I’ve seen where it was actively offered had a team assembled including Sisters and Clergy (and Lay people) to perform Spiritual Direction and you would be paired up with someone of the same sex (I assume, I never did it myself).
In fact, I think Catholics are discouraged from much private contact with persons of the opposite sex (excepting close family members including spouses) in private to avoid the Occasion of Sin and Scandal.
16 October 2009 @ 11:55 pm
It’s always been interesting to me how different people assume what “the church” says or teaches or encourages or whatever.
I’ve spoken to at least 6 (and probably more like 10) priests who say that the church recommends spiritual direction. I’ve also read about it in a few books (4 or 5 at least) that speak as if it’s clearly a good thing that the church recommends.
Almost all of these have assumed that spiritual direction should be done by a priest, and almost all (I can only think of one exception) have looked at me as if I have three lizard heads when I have said that women should not receive spiritual direction from a man — priest or no.
OTOH, some more “traditionalist” Catholics (with whom I have only interacted online) have had the opposite opinion, and have stressed that even confession should be distant — behind the screen, not face to face as it’s often done today — precisely to prevent the possibility of scandal.
And John — the question here is not whether one person can give another person spiritual advice. Obviously people can profit from advice of all sorts. The question is whether it’s prudent for this sort of advice to be given by someone of the opposite sex.
17 October 2009 @ 11:02 am
I’ve not spoken to anyone about Spiritual Direction, but I’ve read a lot about women spiritual directors for women. A lot of Sisters do this work, I think. For example, Jenny at Conversion Diary often writes about her Spiritual Direction with a Religious Sister.
One parish I’m thinking of locally writes up their spiritual direction program in their annual directory and they talk about it being a team, including a Sister available for women.
The local LPMP (Lay Pastoral Ministerial Program) a Master’s level program that (I get the impression) overlaps with the education that a Deacon might get (It seems to me that some men take this education to help discern their Diaconate vocation) has classes in giving Spiritual Direction. I know a local Deacon who has mentioned during a homily that he gives spiritual direction, so around here, at least, it’s not thought to be something reserved just for the Presbyteriate.
Is Msgr. Pope one of the priests you’ve spoken to about this? He seems a solid guy and I bet he would advocate spiritual direction with a woman for women.
You know, it’s funny, after I wrote that last comment on this thread, I thought about the current teaching on Occasion of Sin. I don’t believe it’s mentioned in the current Catechism! At least, it’s not in the index and web searches don’t turn up anything clear on it. Avoiding the near Occasion of Sin is mentioned in the Baltimore Catechism, it seems. I think that’s unfortunate that there’s not clearer teaching on this.
It seems to me that the avoidance of near Occasion of Sin is not just avoiding what would be outwardly observed as Sinful, that’s really covered more by Scandal, it’s also about avoiding the inward thoughts for which we are culpable.
There should be clearer teaching, I think. To give strength to men like this man, who argued against a military assignment.
17 October 2009 @ 12:33 pm
Fr. Pope is a great guy who understands contemporary confusions about male-female roles better than most, but I don’t want to speak for him. He speaks for himself quite adequately at frpope.com.
This topic is an area where the modern church seems to have a gaping blind spot. For example, take a look at this page.
Note this — “Usually it is a good idea to start by looking for a priest.”
But then, “If you find a lay person of the same gender as yourself who fits the above description and is willing to mentor you spiritually, great.”
The attitude seems to be that priests are magically immune from the problems that plague everyone else.
It’s a blind spot. And the question you have to ask yourself is how can so many people be so blind to something so obvious?
17 October 2009 @ 2:30 pm
Because people think of priests as having been (pardon my directness) neutered by their call.
17 October 2009 @ 2:34 pm
Greg,
I wasn’t asking you to speak for Fr. Pope I was asking if you’d conferred with Fr. Pope on this issue and what he said. I know you said you’d spoken to something like 10 priests and I also know you have some association with Fr. Pope.
If this is a confidence you prefer not to divulge, I’d understand, of course. Perhaps he was the one exception among priests you speak about above. I guess it doesn’t matter, I just thought I knew where Fr. Pope would be on this issue based on the homilies I’d heard.
I also know Fr. Pope reads this blog, so it’s possible he’ll chime in here and I would like to know what he thinks, but I wouldn’t email him myself.
I think there’s a long tradition that particularly holy priests have made great spiritual directors for women in the past. I recall that St Vincent de Sales was a spiritual director to French noblemen and women. St Padre Pio also had women to whom he was spiritual director.
So, based on this history, it would be difficult to make a rule against it.
I agree it’s a real problem, though, and the Church needs all it’s members to be eyes for us where we might have blind spots.
18 October 2009 @ 6:25 pm
My guess (from way on the outside) is that it’s not so much a “magical” belief that priests are protected from temptation, as a mistaken and naive belief that having once and for all renounced an active sexual life, they are less susceptible to the temptations that men who “keep the door open” or even regularly feed the sexual impulse (in marriage) are. The idea is that since married men or men who might entertain the possibility of marriage are “allowed to think about having sex” that there’s more temptation than for someone who’s simply chosen to shut that area of his personality down. I think that’s a real misunderstanding of both the nature of temptation and human nature, but I suspect that’s what it is, more than a belief that there’s some magical or even supernatural protection.